If these people figure in. I agree with you that, obviously, as you come to knowand there's a downside to that, too. So we drove down there and, JUDITH RICHARDS: That was your first car? So. You know, fill in the blank; provenance issues, you know. My father got me fired. JUDITH RICHARDS: So this is a field where you're not cultivating auction catalogues and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I mean, that's the field. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I get my screw gun and I open whatever I want to open whenever I want to look at it, so, yes. Had you started going to museums there? You know, that was the biggest problem. JUDITH RICHARDS: What was happening with your brother all these years? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm trying to think who else. But I was happy to help. Weba work by Homer and valued at 30,000. It's actually, you knowit's the kernel of what you do as a collector without the headache of the aftermath. As you say, this aesthetic experience or, you know, the cultivation of the eye or a satisfaction of the eye. And [00:14:03]. JUDITH RICHARDS: to the Imperial porcelain? You know, things like that. But there were rare books in there, but it wasn't a focal collection. And that risk is that that day, that buyer is not in the room. And you have to do that, I think, because, again, this is a small market with limited opportunities, and you have to work very hard at the ones you have. I'm improving the collection. And his son became a future employee, so. She just moved over. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, an earthly attribute. I mean, I think it was a natural evolution. And we can coverbecause between the three of us going through a catalogue, we will isolate out the nine things worth sharing, and then we share those nine things, and then we comment on them, like attribution comments, back and forth. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I believe so, yeah. I mean, sure. You know, you name it. And I said, Oh, this is obvious what's happening. [00:04:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So they have nowthey have now one of the four most-complete ofin the world, and they have the biggest, I believe. I wanted to have a three-day ceratopsian symposium, which they did a wonderful job of. JUDITH RICHARDS: Good morning. It's Triceratops Cliffbut this is entre nous. Webclifford schorer winslow homer. So I would say that's probably the only piece of advice I can have, is that you have to be much more object-focused, learn as much as you can about that object, and try as much as possible to ignore the catalogue entry that shows Chairman Mao by Andy Warhol next to Leonardo da Vinci next to the so-called lot that you're about to buy, and draws these amazing marketing inferences that, you know, you will be like the Medici if you buy this thing. I think they also probably were in New York at that point. And thatyou know, in those cases, I think only if it rises to the level of a conflict of interest that violates the oath. I said, "I had a great time. I like to go back and forth to Paris. No, no. They invited my paleontological heroes, which they also did a wonderful job ofand I sat in the audience quietly, and then at the end of it, we came to an accommodation to create a permanent installation for the specimen, which is the largest specimen in the state. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. So it was an interesting thing. And they say, "Well, 15 percent is outrageous! CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the dealers that I would say, you know, rise to the level ofeven though they're inadvertent, because they don't know that they areI would say mentors, Johnny Van Haeften and Otto Naumann for sure. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. CLIFFORD SCHORER: by the time I was 19, my business was very successful. It's the same problem. There can beyou know, that's much more of a contemporary problem. JUDITH RICHARDS: So while thesewe're talking about these early collecting experiences. And they still associate us with the great works of art, with the quality of the art, because Agnew's obviouslyunsurpassed in theI mean, 15 percent of the National Gallery comes from Agnew's. And I said, you know, This is [00:18:02]. So I've sold off most of my warehouses. CLIFFORD SCHORER: we made everything. You know, it's always a problem. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And lots of it. And I would go to those. So you have dead artists' legacies advocating, which I think is a much easier thing to negotiate. I mean, everyone knew that it was, you know. I think I turned 16 right aroundit was in that first year, so that's what I recall. And you know, I'myou know, if you ask me to, I'll do the carpentry, the electrical, and the plumbing. He's like, "Well, I can't tell you much, but there were some payment issues." So, yes. I remember it was very celebrated. But the problem is, New England is dry as a bone in the winter, so you have, you know, you have extremes, and I think the differenceif you kept a painting in England for 350 years, if you kept the painting in New England for 35 years, I bet it would have far more wear and tear in New England. I'll look it up afterwards. JUDITH RICHARDS: Wasare those kinds of panels very useful to you as a collector, let's say, if you were in the audience? There were a few deals out there where I was a partner with the gallery to back the purchase of something a little bit more expensive, and then the gallery would sell that thing, and I would get a percentage of the profit. Does it happen that a painting and a drawing will happen to hit the market at the same time? You mentioned that. So, you know, we met, we discussed it, and it was far more complex than I thought it would be. I mean, it happens in New York all the time for shows. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, I think if I limited myself to sort of, you know, the quality of the paint, I think, in a way, that would be unsatisfying to me. JUDITH RICHARDS: So that was really interesting and enjoyable, JUDITH RICHARDS: to learn what was entailed in. Or is it changing? The Allori that was sold at Northeast Auctioneers, which came from the Medici Archives, and I found it in the Medici Archives two hours before the auction. And in my new home in BostonI just got a small place to replace my big house because I needed a place to sleep when I'm in Boston. So, yes, something like that that comesan opportunity like that would derail any project for a period, but then we'd come back to our projects, you know. So it comes up at Sotheby's. So, I mean, I rememberI remember buying that because I thought it would be a good decoration. [00:50:05]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do remember as a child going to the Met. So of theof the monochromes, the earlier pieces, I only have maybe 20 pieces left. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because the collection was enormous. [4] The painting was withdrawn with only three lots to go - unusually close to the sale time. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, but you know what I mean. I mean [00:47:59]. I worked very hard on the programs. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean furnishings and the hotels? JUDITH RICHARDS: So it's not secrecy. And also, I'm obsessed with these pivot moments in time, so the events that lead to unforeseen consequences much later on. You really want something; you offer someone five percent commission, and your costs are 10, you know, and that happens regularly in historic art. So. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they were so proud that they recently found it in the ground that they had that at hand so they could tell the story. If you come of age at a certain point in the collecting dynamic, and you are presented with the last 12 years of catalogues, and you go through them all, and from that you draw your conclusions about what the marketplace has been, and then you make the investor's fatal error of projecting the future as the same as the past, the problem there is that you say to yourself, Okay, a painting by, you know, fill in the blank, Molenaer, is worth 20,000 for a minor work. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were therein that fieldbecause I don't know the field very wellis it difficult tois itare there issues of fakes? JUDITH RICHARDS: involve yourself in your conversation about this. [00:44:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: But generally speaking, those didn't show up at most of these estate sales. answer in a very finite category of pictures. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Who had the photographs, because I would never have believed that was an antiquity. However, the first thing I seriously collected as an adultso, age 17 comes, I start a company, and within six months I'm making money. Metal. Yeah. And my maternal grandmother, Ruth, was still living. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, I want to talk about the gallery tomorrow. And he said, "Well, ironically enough, Sotheby's"and I knewI could feel this sort ofwithout even asking the question, I knew that Noortman's days since the death of Robert Noortman were numbered. And now, it's a city of, you know, 100,000 Ph.D.s, who all have good income, but they don't support institutions. Or just the, CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, the Adoration is atis in London at Agnew's Gallery at the moment, and The Taking of Christ is in Worcester, hanging, JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that a long-term loan? 
I think it ended when I was 11. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have a brother, a younger brother. I mean, in those days you had stamp and coin clubs, and you would go. Or not. 
JUDITH RICHARDS: So there's a responsibility to the legacy. I collect Dutch still lifes; I collect," you know, fill in the blank. JUDITH RICHARDS: So coming back to your, CLIFFORD SCHORER: family. I mean, there wasthere was a bit of knowledge of something's not right here. I spoke to the auctioneers quite a bit. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds like it was athe attraction to you was partly the art and the visual experience, and the business history. In the archive there are astonishing surprises. You know, because at the time that's not the way they thought about those things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And again, we got plenty of press about it. WebHe's not a regular player in the region, but what Cliff Schorer has accomplished as board president at the Worcester Art Museum over the last two years has helped revive And every day I would pass through Richmond. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So by the time I was 20, I started collecting, you know, monochrome from the Song period. [00:04:00]. You know. L-E-Y-S-E-N. And he's also involved with the Corpus Rubenianum; he's a great charitable giver. And I've been in Boston ever since. Was it something you had been looking for as an opportunity? Anthony takes charge of all the art questions involved with that, and he will then give me some yeoman's work to go and, you know, "Find this; find that," you know, "Keep your eyes open for this, that, and the other thing. I mean, obviously, this isthis is one approach to art history, where you would take into account [01:00:01]. 
I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. [Laughs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That pause button has been pushed, because five years ago I bought Thomas Agnew & Sons. And, obviously, that is the sort of the genesis of the great collections that just got given to Boston. I don't want to do anything fancy." Now you've got that top strata, which will always be high and going higher. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had made a resume. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're serving as your own contractor? Jon Landau I certainly know more. And to have somebody really sort of advocating, you know, going to bat for them the way he does, you know, with the Corpus Rubenianum especially, but, you know, with everything. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a little bit of disposable income. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Total coincidence. And I thought, you know, We should buy that Cezanne, because it's one of his most Old Master-y Cezannes, and try to tie it in with [Nicolas] Poussin. JUDITH RICHARDS: it's kind of easy to figure out. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't even know. Transcript is available on the Archives of American Art's website. There was a stegosaurus that came up from the Badlands in South Dakota that I didn't move on fast enough, and then there was a triceratops that I didn't move on fast enough, but I had a second opportunity when the owner passed away. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a good, you know, three or four years of financing deals that, you know, I found particularly exciting and interesting, and the paintings that we were ablethat I was able to sort of touch in an abstract way were paintings I could never otherwise touch. Periodically, they'll have them here in New York when theythey'll have a dinner with the Belgian ambassador, and they do this sort of thing. But I think that I'm not willing to roll that roulette wheel. Everyone's retiring. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you keep in touch with him over the years? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. 1:00 p.m.4:00 p.m. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, the difference is if the artist is alive, and the dealer is alive, and you've got, you know, sort of some other motivations. And there's no further I can go. And so, you know, now that I see they're buying great things, they're talking to people I know about pictures I know, about things I know about, and that creates an inherent conflict. And I went down there to go to my old cube [laughs], and it was still there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Ruth Payntar, P-A-Y-N-T-A-R. And on my father's side, both parents were living. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So the piece was mine, in my collection, and it's named after my grandfather. We had four years of consultancy by Christopher Kingzett and Julian Agnew, who were running the firm before. CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, my dollar would go much farther if I wasif I was, shall we say, buying at the root and not the branch. And, obviously, I can continue that when I put something on loan by going into the room and listening to people talk about it, you know, and that adds to the experience around the art. It was [Carlo] Maratti. [4] She rejected this offer and the parties initially agreed to continue the sale and resolve the dispute afterwards. So a couple months go by, and I get this photo, and I open it up, and it's really wonderful. It was about [00:52:00]. So the logical leap I made, which in hindsight was a very good one for commercial reasons, was Chinese Imperial. So, in other words, the entire world previously had been constructed around those dedicated 80 collectors who came to the market, who came to the oasis once a year to buy a painting, be it Maastricht, be it Sotheby's New York, whatever it is. CLIFFORD SCHORER: in the fine art world, it wasn't there. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, let's remember to get back to that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But anyway, I mean, noI mean, I knew of the name and the connection, but there's never been any. I mean, as a matter of fact, CLIFFORD SCHORER: There was a day when I all of sudden said, you know, I can collect paintings. And actually, it was very similar to my grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law. And I remember saying, you know, These are the best Chinese export objects that you can buy, you know, in America, because these were very much American market pieces. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] I said, "One of the greatest bronzes on the planet is in Plovdiv in the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in a plastic box." I mean, who am I? He's a good director. I said, "You've got a great collection here." So, JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "we," you mean you and. It was the High Baroque of Rome. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it's very unusual forwell, when you talk about old art, and you talk about a, you know, an institutional collection, I know, for example, Worcester Art Museum has a policy, as do most American museums, you cannot lend to. [00:34:00]. Children Under a Palm (or sometimes Children Under a Palm Tree) is a water colour painting by Winslow Homer. It sounds, from what you've said, that you prefer a level of anonymity with your loans and your donations. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? You know, they were a very large shop. And there was a, you know, there was a large group, and they were giving a lecture on the Counter-Reformation and how this painting perfectly encapsulates the Counter-Reformation becauseand you fill in the blank. So I went to Spain, and I tried to buy both of the remaining paintings. So, you know, I think that's why I say it's a hobby you can take to your tomb. It was a much smaller circle. So they used to have in their little museumsthey probablyonce, back in the '50s and during communism, they probably had these Thracian pieces, you know, that they found in the ground, and then the National Museum sort of pulled them all into the National Museum. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is on your father's side? I've been coming to every Skinner auction for 10 yearsoh, more than that, 19 years. And he's deceased now. So, you know, I did that kind of loop aesthetically, where I went from the filigree to the shadow. We can cover a lot of auctions in a night. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or related to artists that are interesting to me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because they seemed cheap? That was one thing. I mean, certainly, Thomas Leysen, who's a phenomenal collector in Antwerp. That wasn't quite enough to buy much, but if you bought secondary names, which meant that you needed to know all the secondary names, and if you bought the best quality of those secondary names, you could do okay. 
And I know that the story itself is extremely exciting, because to my knowledge, it's the largest commissionI mean, it's 37 four-meter canvases. JUDITH RICHARDS: And not buying a lot, but gaining information and confidence, and then, and then it wentthe volume of activity. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, to me, that was that was very exciting. And so we've certainlywe've done a very strong Pre-Raphaelite program; we've done a very strong early 20th-century program; we are not really. [00:56:00]. So those. When you're dealing with loans, and physically, the reality of the question, do you employ a registrar or an art handler or anyone like that? Yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre, to, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? And often. [00:02:03]. So we did something, you know, I thought rather radical, which was, you know, Anthony's idea, a very good idea, which was to showBill Viola was focused on martyrdom by the four elements, and we constructed this entire idea about martyrdom to build an exhibition around. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, we are, and we will. I bought a cash-flow business, that I don't need to babysit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and previously had been unassociated. [Laughs.] I can point out that prices at auction are still 40 percent below the price that a well-executed private sale treaty could be done at, if the buyer and the seller are fully informed and have all the information, understand the importance or lack of importance of the work, you know, the things that an auction doesn't allow for. JUDITH RICHARDS: Restorations that are hidden? In her later years, Olive was described by one of her grandsons as being "a formidable looking woman of whom I was somewhat frightened".[3]. I love computer languages. Those things are fun. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: yourself a kind of an allowance of paintings? They're rare, of course. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. So what I'm trying to do is take a very hands-off approach to the sort ofany cash flow that goes into the business is reinvested in the business, which helps us to be able to buy better stock and do different things, and that might give us a slight edge over some other galleries where their owners need to provide their lifestyle from the income. Another gallery, a different gallery? JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "secondary names," those are still artists who would be in museum collections? And so, you know, obviously this is a man with probably a military education in Germany. Payntars are Dutch, yeah. But they don'tthey certainly don't show them together except in a rare circumstance, where they might have a focal exhibition where showing the preparatory things adds something to the didactic, not theit's not done simply to put the painting on the wall next to a print, you know, next to an engraving. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because the people I knew [laughs] when I was 17 were 60. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you buy a seat for it? I met a few collectors that I still know. I mean, it's those kinds of crazy, you knowI mean, you think about it. JUDITH RICHARDS: And that went into your endowment? So he got a sense that I was a very strange human being. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. [00:18:00]. There were things that were not really museum pieces, but they were very valuable things. JUDITH RICHARDS: Reading auction catalogues? And Anna especially, too, on the aesthetic, of creating a new aesthetic that people do not any longer associate with the old aesthetic. At some point. And how the Chinese merchants were trying to sell you back what you wanted to see. We do TEFAF New York, TEFAF Maastricht, Masterpiece. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is this partly an interest in history? JUDITH RICHARDS: So the only alternativeif the person can be convincedis if you just offer them cash to buy it, and then you have a part of your inventory. So what I did was, around the same time I bought Agnew's, I also bought a restaurant chain, a franchise chain of restaurants, that would just provide a background income. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that the first time you've encountered that kind of [laughs] situation? That book should be out very soon, actually. I mean, you know, that's. And I came back in a year, diligently, with the little glassine pouches that he gave me and all sorted. I mean, a story I'm obsessed with is theis the German scientist who invented the nitrate process for fertilizer, because in his hands lies the population explosion of the 20th century. So. And one professor in particular became a very close friend. JUDITH RICHARDS: If they were appropriate. JUDITH RICHARDS: What's the name of the curator at the Met again who did the Gossart? You know, we don't provide client services the way that the firm did back then. Likewise, have there been specific curatorsyou mentioned manywho have played an important part in your education, in your development of your interests? JUDITH RICHARDS: So the, in the '90s, you were beginning your studying, and you're focused on these key areas of Italian, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Again, it's a world of solitude, though; you talk about studying. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So one branch of the family were the owners of the Deed of Queens, New York, whenback when the Dutch were here. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. [00:08:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So he would've comehe would've come into America then, and didn't speak English becausefrom what I could tell, his English was a second languageand then became an engineer. But I wouldn't have purchased the ongoing operation of the business. JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? [4] He gave the painting to his daughter Selina Varney. How can they possibly have a Piero di Cosimo in Worcester? So, you know, those are the kinds of things that happen more frequently, which is that one finds a hand in a Carlo Maratti painting, and one then goes and finds that the Albertina has that hand in a sketchbook that is known to have been by [Andrea] Sacchi or Maratti. The art questions were Anthony's bailiwick. And he started me on collecting, actually. As they tend to do. I mean, it was something I enjoyed doing, and I would do it again, you know? He collects in that era; he collects Antwerp painters, buys great things. Well, we talked about that a little earlier. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My ownI always maintained paper files, and I'm a computer guy, but I maintain paper files because I've changed technology platforms so many times over the last 25 years that you have to be conscious of that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. So a friend of mine that I had known came to me and said that he thought that the library at Agnew's would be available, and, you know, that was interesting to me. [Laughs.] WebA household name in the US, Winslow Homer created dramatic images of human resilience, depicting the US Civil War and the aftermath of slavery, writes Diane Cole. They just would not be the most prominent? He was a very important stamp collector. And I'm very excited, because Procaccini will finally get a major, monographic book. So when I came back to New York, basically, I figured out how I could do it. Oh, no. But that would be locally; like, if an opportunity arose, I would go; I would look; I would buy something at an auction. And they basically said, "Well then, audit any course you want." I mean, I pointed it out, and he bought it for the museum, and now it's, you knowit's an extremely interesting thing about how these ideas disseminate. You know, from the slaves of West Africa, to the sugar, to the rum, to the plates, to the spices. I mean, I would call Frederick Ilchman; I would call somebody, and I would say, "Who should I talk to about this person?" I mean, a real Reynolds. But no, I mean, I can'tI didn't think it was a subjectI understood that it wasthese were products made for the export market. I drove to the border and I said, "I want to walk over the border and get a train to Bosnia-Herzegovina." So that's where, obviously, you know, this is coming to the end of the period when I thought that it was practical to buy these things. I mean, I know that. He also practised printmaking. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So we're changingone by one, we're changing the buildings. JUDITH RICHARDS: Region, meaning New England? And then when they referred you to something else that was interesting, I would go look at that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, that's like $100,000 to half a million, and that's not the weakest. Now that decorators are not putting bad Old Masters in the living rooms of every nouveau riche house, that's not floating anymore. And I would see the same objects pop up here and there, and I would know exactly where they came from. You know, there are sort of monographic shows of sort of the unsung heroes of art history that I'm very excited, you knowwhen Maryan Ainsworth did the [Jan] Gossart show at the Met, you know, those kinds ofthe Pieter Coecke van Aelst tapestry show with a few paintingsthose kinds of shows are always extraordinary for me, you know, the things that not everybody is going to go see, but that, you know, obviously, it tells a story about an unsung name who may have been either the teacher of someone who went on to achieve, you know, sort of, international fame, or the originator of ideas that became part of our [00:24:14]. They may not appreciate how much I'm absorbing from them, but, you know, I'm gratuitously stealing from them. They had a big sale in the '80s, and just three or four weeks ago they had a sale of Dodo Dorrance, who was the daughter of Jack Dorrance, and in that sale was a beautiful Cezanne, really beautiful Cezanne. . And, you know, the best Procaccini, when I was looking back in 2000, was 5 to 6 million. Investments. The mission changed; the vision statement changed; the facilities are undergoing changes. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: I think we'll conclude. And he was an art collector. I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. [Laughs.] They just simply said, you know, "No mas." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I have. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wouldn'tI would probably never acquire another gallery, because that wouldI mean, I think I would probably be more of a financial investor in other art businesses, potentially service businesses. And, you know, we can cover a lot of ground. [00:32:05]. You know, I electrified it when I got it home, because it was a gasit was a gas and candle, so. [ 00:18:02 ] of a contemporary problem I drove to the shadow people I knew [ laughs ] situation met. That fieldbecause I do remember as a collector without the headache of the aftermath interesting, 'm! 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I think it ended when I was 11. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have a brother, a younger brother. I mean, in those days you had stamp and coin clubs, and you would go. Or not. I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. [Laughs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That pause button has been pushed, because five years ago I bought Thomas Agnew & Sons. And, obviously, that is the sort of the genesis of the great collections that just got given to Boston. I don't want to do anything fancy." Now you've got that top strata, which will always be high and going higher. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had made a resume. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're serving as your own contractor? Jon Landau I certainly know more. And to have somebody really sort of advocating, you know, going to bat for them the way he does, you know, with the Corpus Rubenianum especially, but, you know, with everything. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a little bit of disposable income. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Total coincidence. And I thought, you know, We should buy that Cezanne, because it's one of his most Old Master-y Cezannes, and try to tie it in with [Nicolas] Poussin. JUDITH RICHARDS: it's kind of easy to figure out. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't even know. Transcript is available on the Archives of American Art's website. There was a stegosaurus that came up from the Badlands in South Dakota that I didn't move on fast enough, and then there was a triceratops that I didn't move on fast enough, but I had a second opportunity when the owner passed away. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a good, you know, three or four years of financing deals that, you know, I found particularly exciting and interesting, and the paintings that we were ablethat I was able to sort of touch in an abstract way were paintings I could never otherwise touch. Periodically, they'll have them here in New York when theythey'll have a dinner with the Belgian ambassador, and they do this sort of thing. But I think that I'm not willing to roll that roulette wheel. Everyone's retiring. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you keep in touch with him over the years? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. 1:00 p.m.4:00 p.m. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, the difference is if the artist is alive, and the dealer is alive, and you've got, you know, sort of some other motivations. And there's no further I can go. And so, you know, now that I see they're buying great things, they're talking to people I know about pictures I know, about things I know about, and that creates an inherent conflict. And I went down there to go to my old cube [laughs], and it was still there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Ruth Payntar, P-A-Y-N-T-A-R. And on my father's side, both parents were living. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So the piece was mine, in my collection, and it's named after my grandfather. We had four years of consultancy by Christopher Kingzett and Julian Agnew, who were running the firm before. CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, my dollar would go much farther if I wasif I was, shall we say, buying at the root and not the branch. And, obviously, I can continue that when I put something on loan by going into the room and listening to people talk about it, you know, and that adds to the experience around the art. It was [Carlo] Maratti. [4] She rejected this offer and the parties initially agreed to continue the sale and resolve the dispute afterwards. So a couple months go by, and I get this photo, and I open it up, and it's really wonderful. It was about [00:52:00]. So the logical leap I made, which in hindsight was a very good one for commercial reasons, was Chinese Imperial. So, in other words, the entire world previously had been constructed around those dedicated 80 collectors who came to the market, who came to the oasis once a year to buy a painting, be it Maastricht, be it Sotheby's New York, whatever it is. CLIFFORD SCHORER: in the fine art world, it wasn't there. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, let's remember to get back to that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But anyway, I mean, noI mean, I knew of the name and the connection, but there's never been any. I mean, as a matter of fact, CLIFFORD SCHORER: There was a day when I all of sudden said, you know, I can collect paintings. And actually, it was very similar to my grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law. And I remember saying, you know, These are the best Chinese export objects that you can buy, you know, in America, because these were very much American market pieces. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] I said, "One of the greatest bronzes on the planet is in Plovdiv in the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in a plastic box." I mean, who am I? He's a good director. I said, "You've got a great collection here." So, JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "we," you mean you and. It was the High Baroque of Rome. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it's very unusual forwell, when you talk about old art, and you talk about a, you know, an institutional collection, I know, for example, Worcester Art Museum has a policy, as do most American museums, you cannot lend to. [00:34:00]. Children Under a Palm (or sometimes Children Under a Palm Tree) is a water colour painting by Winslow Homer. It sounds, from what you've said, that you prefer a level of anonymity with your loans and your donations. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? You know, they were a very large shop. And there was a, you know, there was a large group, and they were giving a lecture on the Counter-Reformation and how this painting perfectly encapsulates the Counter-Reformation becauseand you fill in the blank. So I went to Spain, and I tried to buy both of the remaining paintings. So, you know, I think that's why I say it's a hobby you can take to your tomb. It was a much smaller circle. So they used to have in their little museumsthey probablyonce, back in the '50s and during communism, they probably had these Thracian pieces, you know, that they found in the ground, and then the National Museum sort of pulled them all into the National Museum. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is on your father's side? I've been coming to every Skinner auction for 10 yearsoh, more than that, 19 years. And he's deceased now. So, you know, I did that kind of loop aesthetically, where I went from the filigree to the shadow. We can cover a lot of auctions in a night. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or related to artists that are interesting to me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because they seemed cheap? That was one thing. I mean, certainly, Thomas Leysen, who's a phenomenal collector in Antwerp. That wasn't quite enough to buy much, but if you bought secondary names, which meant that you needed to know all the secondary names, and if you bought the best quality of those secondary names, you could do okay. And I know that the story itself is extremely exciting, because to my knowledge, it's the largest commissionI mean, it's 37 four-meter canvases. JUDITH RICHARDS: And not buying a lot, but gaining information and confidence, and then, and then it wentthe volume of activity. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, to me, that was that was very exciting. And so we've certainlywe've done a very strong Pre-Raphaelite program; we've done a very strong early 20th-century program; we are not really. [00:56:00]. So those. When you're dealing with loans, and physically, the reality of the question, do you employ a registrar or an art handler or anyone like that? Yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre, to, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? And often. [00:02:03]. So we did something, you know, I thought rather radical, which was, you know, Anthony's idea, a very good idea, which was to showBill Viola was focused on martyrdom by the four elements, and we constructed this entire idea about martyrdom to build an exhibition around. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, we are, and we will. I bought a cash-flow business, that I don't need to babysit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and previously had been unassociated. [Laughs.] I can point out that prices at auction are still 40 percent below the price that a well-executed private sale treaty could be done at, if the buyer and the seller are fully informed and have all the information, understand the importance or lack of importance of the work, you know, the things that an auction doesn't allow for. JUDITH RICHARDS: Restorations that are hidden? In her later years, Olive was described by one of her grandsons as being "a formidable looking woman of whom I was somewhat frightened".[3]. I love computer languages. Those things are fun. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: yourself a kind of an allowance of paintings? They're rare, of course. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. So what I'm trying to do is take a very hands-off approach to the sort ofany cash flow that goes into the business is reinvested in the business, which helps us to be able to buy better stock and do different things, and that might give us a slight edge over some other galleries where their owners need to provide their lifestyle from the income. Another gallery, a different gallery? JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "secondary names," those are still artists who would be in museum collections? And so, you know, obviously this is a man with probably a military education in Germany. Payntars are Dutch, yeah. But they don'tthey certainly don't show them together except in a rare circumstance, where they might have a focal exhibition where showing the preparatory things adds something to the didactic, not theit's not done simply to put the painting on the wall next to a print, you know, next to an engraving. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because the people I knew [laughs] when I was 17 were 60. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you buy a seat for it? I met a few collectors that I still know. I mean, it's those kinds of crazy, you knowI mean, you think about it. JUDITH RICHARDS: And that went into your endowment? So he got a sense that I was a very strange human being. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. [00:18:00]. There were things that were not really museum pieces, but they were very valuable things. JUDITH RICHARDS: Reading auction catalogues? And Anna especially, too, on the aesthetic, of creating a new aesthetic that people do not any longer associate with the old aesthetic. At some point. And how the Chinese merchants were trying to sell you back what you wanted to see. We do TEFAF New York, TEFAF Maastricht, Masterpiece. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is this partly an interest in history? JUDITH RICHARDS: So the only alternativeif the person can be convincedis if you just offer them cash to buy it, and then you have a part of your inventory. So what I did was, around the same time I bought Agnew's, I also bought a restaurant chain, a franchise chain of restaurants, that would just provide a background income. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that the first time you've encountered that kind of [laughs] situation? That book should be out very soon, actually. I mean, you know, that's. And I came back in a year, diligently, with the little glassine pouches that he gave me and all sorted. I mean, a story I'm obsessed with is theis the German scientist who invented the nitrate process for fertilizer, because in his hands lies the population explosion of the 20th century. So. And one professor in particular became a very close friend. JUDITH RICHARDS: If they were appropriate. JUDITH RICHARDS: What's the name of the curator at the Met again who did the Gossart? You know, we don't provide client services the way that the firm did back then. Likewise, have there been specific curatorsyou mentioned manywho have played an important part in your education, in your development of your interests? JUDITH RICHARDS: So the, in the '90s, you were beginning your studying, and you're focused on these key areas of Italian, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Again, it's a world of solitude, though; you talk about studying. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So one branch of the family were the owners of the Deed of Queens, New York, whenback when the Dutch were here. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. [00:08:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So he would've comehe would've come into America then, and didn't speak English becausefrom what I could tell, his English was a second languageand then became an engineer. But I wouldn't have purchased the ongoing operation of the business. JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? [4] He gave the painting to his daughter Selina Varney. How can they possibly have a Piero di Cosimo in Worcester? So, you know, those are the kinds of things that happen more frequently, which is that one finds a hand in a Carlo Maratti painting, and one then goes and finds that the Albertina has that hand in a sketchbook that is known to have been by [Andrea] Sacchi or Maratti. The art questions were Anthony's bailiwick. And he started me on collecting, actually. As they tend to do. I mean, it was something I enjoyed doing, and I would do it again, you know? He collects in that era; he collects Antwerp painters, buys great things. Well, we talked about that a little earlier. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My ownI always maintained paper files, and I'm a computer guy, but I maintain paper files because I've changed technology platforms so many times over the last 25 years that you have to be conscious of that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. So a friend of mine that I had known came to me and said that he thought that the library at Agnew's would be available, and, you know, that was interesting to me. [Laughs.] WebA household name in the US, Winslow Homer created dramatic images of human resilience, depicting the US Civil War and the aftermath of slavery, writes Diane Cole. They just would not be the most prominent? He was a very important stamp collector. And I'm very excited, because Procaccini will finally get a major, monographic book. So when I came back to New York, basically, I figured out how I could do it. Oh, no. But that would be locally; like, if an opportunity arose, I would go; I would look; I would buy something at an auction. And they basically said, "Well then, audit any course you want." I mean, I pointed it out, and he bought it for the museum, and now it's, you knowit's an extremely interesting thing about how these ideas disseminate. You know, from the slaves of West Africa, to the sugar, to the rum, to the plates, to the spices. I mean, I would call Frederick Ilchman; I would call somebody, and I would say, "Who should I talk to about this person?" I mean, a real Reynolds. But no, I mean, I can'tI didn't think it was a subjectI understood that it wasthese were products made for the export market. I drove to the border and I said, "I want to walk over the border and get a train to Bosnia-Herzegovina." So that's where, obviously, you know, this is coming to the end of the period when I thought that it was practical to buy these things. I mean, I know that. He also practised printmaking. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So we're changingone by one, we're changing the buildings. JUDITH RICHARDS: Region, meaning New England? And then when they referred you to something else that was interesting, I would go look at that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, that's like $100,000 to half a million, and that's not the weakest. Now that decorators are not putting bad Old Masters in the living rooms of every nouveau riche house, that's not floating anymore. And I would see the same objects pop up here and there, and I would know exactly where they came from. You know, there are sort of monographic shows of sort of the unsung heroes of art history that I'm very excited, you knowwhen Maryan Ainsworth did the [Jan] Gossart show at the Met, you know, those kinds ofthe Pieter Coecke van Aelst tapestry show with a few paintingsthose kinds of shows are always extraordinary for me, you know, the things that not everybody is going to go see, but that, you know, obviously, it tells a story about an unsung name who may have been either the teacher of someone who went on to achieve, you know, sort of, international fame, or the originator of ideas that became part of our [00:24:14]. They may not appreciate how much I'm absorbing from them, but, you know, I'm gratuitously stealing from them. They had a big sale in the '80s, and just three or four weeks ago they had a sale of Dodo Dorrance, who was the daughter of Jack Dorrance, and in that sale was a beautiful Cezanne, really beautiful Cezanne. . And, you know, the best Procaccini, when I was looking back in 2000, was 5 to 6 million. Investments. The mission changed; the vision statement changed; the facilities are undergoing changes. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: I think we'll conclude. And he was an art collector. I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. [Laughs.] They just simply said, you know, "No mas." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I have. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wouldn'tI would probably never acquire another gallery, because that wouldI mean, I think I would probably be more of a financial investor in other art businesses, potentially service businesses. And, you know, we can cover a lot of ground. [00:32:05]. You know, I electrified it when I got it home, because it was a gasit was a gas and candle, so. [ 00:18:02 ] of a contemporary problem I drove to the shadow people I knew [ laughs ] situation met. That fieldbecause I do remember as a collector without the headache of the aftermath interesting, 'm! 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